What does the new presidential administration mean for the seniors housing industry? David Schless, President of ASHA, discusses how members can join advocacy efforts, plus a preview of the 2025 Annual Meeting in Arizona. 

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Intro

Welcome to season seven of Bridge The Gap, a podcast dedicated to informing, educating, and influencing the future of housing and services for seniors. Powered by sponsors Accushield, Aline, NIC MAP Vision, Procare HR, Sage, Hamilton CapTel, Service Master, The Bridge Group Construction and Solinity. Produced by Solinity Marketing.

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00:35 - 00:46

Lucas McCurdy

Welcome to Bridge the Gap podcast, the senior living podcast with Josh and Lucas. We got a great friend and a returning guest. You guys get to hear from Dave Schless of ASHA. Welcome back to the program.

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00:46 - 00:52

David Schless

A pleasure. Always enjoy my time with you. And, appreciate having a chance to visit again.

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00:52 - 01:34

Lucas McCurdy

Absolutely. We are obviously preparing here at the end of the year, you're preparing to host a great membership meeting. A winter membership meeting is going to be January 27th through the 29th, 2025. It's amazing to be talking about 2025 already, right? It'll be the annual meeting taking place in Arizona at the Biltmore in Phoenix. I'm excited about that. You know, Dave, I hope that you can do something about the weather, because I remember last time we were there, the popsicle golfers. Coming back in, frozen from being on the frost filled golf course in Arizona. What was that all about?

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01:34 - 02:08

David Schless

I'll say this. We have had probably 6 or 7 annual meetings at the Arizona Biltmore. It's a very unique property. It was, I believe, the only hotel that Frank Lloyd Wright designed. So it's a really terrific property. But generally speaking, you know, there are worse places to be than Phoenix in late January. So I'm an optimist by nature. I think we're going to be, I think we're going to be good on the weather front. I certainly hope we don't see frost again.

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02:08 - 03:07

Lucas McCurdy

Likewise. Yes. You always pick great locations. I really look forward to traveling to get to the annual membership meeting. And, you know, we do hope it is a little bit warmer there than other places. And, you know, speaking of heating up, you know, you're there in DC, is a lot going on in transition. You know, ASHA has always beeN, I would consider the top advocate for senior housing. And you've been at this so many years through so many different administrations. There's always good and bad, no matter what. Is behind their names. And ASHA carries the mantle and the flag to advocate for senior housing. As the year comes to an end and we start this transition in 2025, what do you think the challenges and opportunities are with the new administration? And what is actually going to be focused on, in the upcoming years to help promote and advocate for senior housing?

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03:07 - 08:51

David Schless

The one constant for me having, having done this, you know, for many years, I mean there's always change in Washington and the House of Representatives every couple of years, obviously the Senate, you know, the elections are staggered and so there's just this constant need to build relationships, Capitol Hill with new representatives, new senators, new staffers. So, I mean, we're, you know, it's a never ending process for us. And that in part is, you know, really central to what we do. We have that focus. We don't have, you know, the state affiliates. So we're really solely focused on federal policy. And, you know, obviously we were watching, as everyone was, the recent election.

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You know, I mean, obviously, you know, we, you know, we know President Trump and, you know, and certainly the, you know, well, there's still a few races that haven't yet been called, you know, the Senate flipping to, Republican control. You know, definitely, I think is, you know, going to, you know, it'll be we'll be facing different, different issues, probably, you know, reduced pressure on, in certain respects. On the Senate side, obviously this past year, we, you know, spent a lot of time dealing with a variety of different bills that were introduced primarily by the two Massachusetts senators, both Democrats, Senator Warren and Senator Markey. You know, kind of reactionary, legislation that would have really, if enacted, would have had just profoundly negative consequences. For all, all healthcare. I mean, they were bills that really would have had a chilling effect on investment, from private equity and rights, in very broadly defined categories of healthcare. And so, you know, again, with the different Congress, the Republicans taking over it doesn't mean that those issues go away.

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It means that, you know, Senator Warren, Senator Markey they won't have as much prominent leadership on an issue like that. So that, you know, I think that we  will continue to work on that. It's an issue that, you know, probably, probably won't go away. But to a large extent, the Republicans controlling the Senate probably makes that less front and center than it would have otherwise been. You know, if the Democrats held on to the Senate, ultimately next year, you know, obviously we need to see who's chairing various committees and agencies. There's not a lot we don't know yet. I think it's safe to say next year will be a tax year. So the number of expiring tax provisions from the last major tax legislation, which was enacted during President Trump's previous term, will probably take up a lot of energy.

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And, you know, that's an area for us where, you know, we have to be very focused because, you know, you know, very minor changes to the tax code, you know, potentially have very significant consequences. And so in that last tax bill, there was, so there was some, some language that the way it was written, we had some concerns about whether senior living would be able to continue to deduct business interest. And so we were concerned enough about it to get something into the Senate record, ultimately the legislative record. And that was something called a colloquy. And that was, essentially the chair of the Senate Finance Committee, Orrin Hatch, with Senator Lankford, who was a member of the Senate Finance Committee, reading into, you know, the legislative record very specifically that the that congressional intent was to, include senior living in the definition of real estate for purposes of, the deductibility of business interest.

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But, you know, I just point that out because, you know, those are things that, again, you know, senior living would be very disadvantaged if somehow, you know, legislation was passed and, you know, the tax treatment was different for senior living than, say, for apartments or hotels or, you know, other, other types of real estate. So it requires a lot of attention and focus and again, you know, they'll be the focal point, I think of a good deal of the legislature next year. Obviously, we're still kind of waiting to see, you know, who controls the House. And that, you know, and that will dictate some of the horse trading that will go on. But a big tax year in 2025. I think we can definitely anticipate that,

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08:51 - 10:02

Josh Crisp

Dave. You know, that's, that's a lot of information in our, some of our listeners that may not fully understand, you know, how much the advocacy piece, you know how much time that takes. And you mentioned, you know, it seems like constant change, constant change in Washington. And whether that's every couple years, every four years, there's always these changes. And I imagine that presents a really difficult challenge to build a relationship. And, and candidly, to have some influence in the educational aspect for what sometimes seems to be these knee jerk or reactionary, sort of impulses, to legislation and bills. 

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What does that really look like with boots on the ground for ASHA? When you're not only trying to learn who these people are, get in to see them, I would imagine, build a relationship to inform and educate them. I mean, how long does that process take? I could see that by the time that you feel like you're getting somewhere with these individuals, it's already turning over. So that just kind of feels like a revolving door for you guys, doesn't it?

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10:02 - 13:14

David Schless

It's an ongoing process. It never ends. I always say this, that, you know, that I'm exaggerating probably a little bit, but we're really up on The Hill almost every day of the year. And even, you know, when members of Congress are back home in their state or in their districts, a lot of times we're, you know, we're still up on it. Also, it is an ongoing process for us. It's a, you know, it's a bipartisan process. I mean, we're obviously focused on the committees that touch senior living, and some more than others. But, yeah, it's a never ending process. And, you know, look at some situations over time, you know, you really have an opportunity to change someone's perspective.

If they had a negative perspective about senior living over time, you know, there are opportunities to really educate and tell our story. And I mean, at the end of the day, you know, that's really what we're all about. And that's for us obviously we have a seniors housing political action committee and, you know, that provides us access. It doesn't influence anyone's vote. But we need to be in front of the members of Congress and their staff. And that's just an ongoing process. Obviously. You know, some of it we do with our, our, members, we took a whole bunch of folks up to Capitol Hill following the NIC conference in Washington, DC this year.

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And so, yeah, I mean it's an ongoing process. And then we have some members that are on their own, you know, involved politically and so those are very helpful. I mean, to get to know members of Congress and their staff and, yeah, certainly we do a lot of work with other organizations. The aim, which is not a direct affiliate of the Alzheimer's Association, but, they do a lot of advocacy related to Alzheimer's research and certainly Argentum Silver PAC and American Health Care Association, but yeah, it's constant.

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I mean, it is constant. And again, you know, for us, we don't have the state affiliates. So that really, you know, we have that focus and, you know, both the ASHA legislative team and then, you know, we work with outside lobbyists as well. And certainly like this, you know, following an election, there's going to be a lot of new people, a lot of, you know, new staffers and just, you know, a lot of a lot of change coming.

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13:14 - 14:21

Josh Crisp

The work that you guys do is phenomenal. And it's good for our audience to know that that's an every day of the year function. A lot of times, people just think about the awesome events that you guys put together for your membership and partners to the industry, which is what we do want to get to.

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We want to talk about that because everything we have just been talking about makes this year's annual meeting in January, the 27th and 29th, even that more pivotal and important, for members to unite around, because I'm sure many of the challenges, obstacles that our industry faces, as well as the opportunities that we can, talk about and celebrate, some wins together as well, is going to happen in January.

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It's always something that me and Lucas and the Bridge the Gap team look forward to and appreciate your partnership. And, us being able to share with our listeners some of the awesome thought leaders that attend this event. So we're going to be out in Arizona. Can you give us some highlights of what attendees and the partners to the industry could expect to see this year?

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14:21 - 27:30

David Schless

You know what I always like to say? Just kind of setting the stage. So if you've never been to an actual meeting, it is probably a little bit unique. We have, I think, really always tried to keep kind of a balance of, you know, opportunities to interact with other industry leaders. In, you know, both receptions and, you know, like, outdoor activities. So, you know, Arizona lends itself obviously to golf and, I know we'll be doing a group hike and, we've got pickleball again, pick up. You know, pickleball is popular. So we like those opportunities to let people really get to know other industry peers and industry colleagues.

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And, you know, that's always been really important to us. And then obviously, you've got the receptions and, you know, the more formal part of the meeting. But, yeah, we really like that. We think that's a really important ingredient in these meetings, obviously, you know, the meeting in January. It's nice because it's, you know, it's kind of the kickoff to the new year. And so, you know, we try and yeah, we try to cover a range of topics at the annual meeting. We have a really amazing keynote speaker. That, you know, we're, we're really excited about what we've got, Rob Kaplan, who is the vice chair of Goldman Sachs. And Rob, Rob Kaplan had been the president, CEO of the Dallas Federal Reserve Bank, had a very lengthy, illustrious career at Goldman Sachs. Taught at Harvard Business School for a bunch of years. But just, you know, again, in terms of capital markets, the economy, you know, he's really got his pulse on what's going on. And, you know, is for, you know, for the capital. But, you know, for any of our meetings, I mean, the capital piece of this is just so integral. I mean, it's really just a crucial piece of these meetings.

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So, we're really thrilled to have Rob Kaplan, with us in, in January at the annual meeting to deliver the, you know, the keynote presentation. You know, kind of sticking with that topic. I mean, as you both, we always cover capital markets in these, you know, in these annual meetings. So we'll also have, a really, I think a terrific panel, that will, you know, get into more of the industry specific capital discussion on capital valuation trends. That'll be moderated by Matt Whitlock of Berkshire Residential Investment with, Colleen Blumenthal of Health Trust, Tim McCue of Welltower and Kurt Reed of, our ASF partners in Dallas.

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So, you know, that's a really, you know, really terrific panel. And, you know, so we think we'll cover we'll cover those issues, you know, really, you know, really well, we we also, I think, have always tried at the annual meeting to, know, have have kind of a CEO type discussion that, you know, really allows the moderator to, you know, cover a lot of different topics from operations to occupancy to development, you know, just so many different topics. And so that'll be moderated this year by our chair, Kathy Sweeney, Blue Moon Capital Partners. And she's got Cindy Baer from Brookdale Senior Living, Justin Hutchens from Ventas, and Richard Hutchinson from Discovery Senior Living. So cover a lot of, senior housing properties across that, you know, across that group of Kathy's a fabulous moderator.

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So I'm sure that it will be a really insightful discussion. I always like to say, I think that the moderator is frequently the most important part of any session because, you know, you really have to be willing to, you know, prepare for the session and ask good questions and follow ups. Kathy is a fabulous moderator. So really excited about, you know, about that particular session. I always like to also do some breakouts, where, you know, we break into smaller rooms and, you know, allow people to maybe interact a little bit more than they can in the big sessions.

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And so, you know, we'll have a session that'll talk about public policy. Again. We talked a little bit about that, but we'll have Jean Jean McGlynn Delgado, who heads up our policy team. She'll be leading that breakout session with, Michelle Kelly from, National Health Investors, who is our seniors housing pact chair, and has gotten, you know, really involved in our policy, as well, we'll do a session that'll focus on partnering with health care providers and senior living. So again, a topic that, you know, we're really interested in and we know there's a lot of different approaches. And, you know, we've got a really good panel. And again, we'll have Alan Fairbanks from Serviam Care Network and, you know, Alan spent many years, of course, you know, on the operating side with Bickford.

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And so he's got a really unique perspective, survey of the care network, really interesting. And, you know, I think definitely, you know, I'm, I'm a fan of what they're doing. And I think, you know, I think they're going to do really great things for their, you know, for the industry and for their partners. We've got Larry Gumina from Ohio living not for profit, very involved in, you know, in a different way with the perennial plan. So they're actually a risk bearing, plan with, with their partners, also real thoughtful. And then and then we've got Mark Price, the CEO of Curana, who also, as you know, just has a very wide range of, you know, interests in this space, a very unique perspective on, you know, value based care and older adults in different settings.

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So I think that's going to be a really, you know, a really great discussion. We've got a breakout session on a focus on marketing and sales. Again, something that, you know, we don't always cover, but it's just such an important topic. And, and, you know, for us, it, you know, it really is, you know, touches upon what we're trying to do with our Where You Live Matters initiative but, you know, really, you know, we'll talk about a lot of different things.

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Christy van der Westhuizen of Legend will moderate that session. We've got Heather Fremont with Maplewood Senior Living and Eric Farren of the Aspenwood Company. So both, you know, really terrific, you know, seasoned professionals. So that should be a really good discussion. And then, you know, we have a legal kind of a legal operations breakout session. We always try to find sessions that are really practical. And, you know, there's, you know, there's just this intersection of, you know, legal issues that are really hard sometimes. And then someone's, you know, too hard to understand for anyone. And I know because I try to understand them. And then, you know, that someone's got to actually interpret them and, you know, make them work. The reality of, you know, operations.

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And so, yeah, this will be a session where we'll kind of talk about some of those really challenging issues that sometimes aren't, you know, aren't really as clear cut or as black and white as, you know, as they maybe should be. But, yeah, we have again, a really good panel. So we've got, Christian Holland, who's with SRG out of California. Allison Ramirez, who's with Bridge Investment Group, and she chairs her legal committee. And then we've got Kathy LeVee, who is the president and chief operating officer of Generations, which is based in Oregon. So I know that's going to be a, you know, I know they're going to cover some really important topics I'm particularly interested in and in that discussion and, there are a lot of complexities and I find myself sometimes really scratching my head at how hard it is for the operators to kind of navigate various rulings and not so crystal clear laws and, so I think that'll be I think that'll be a great panel then.

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Yeah, we're going to do another one that I think is also really important for the industry. And it's going to, you know, really kind of focus on, you know, how can you as an owner, as an operator, be prepared for a cyber attack? Again, something that I think we all wish we weren't, you know, talking about, you know, as, as an organization or an industry or as a country. But, you know, I think we all know that, you know, that there are things that, you know, there are bad actors out there and, and, you know, these bad actors target all different types of businesses, all different sizes. And, you know, so we've got a, again, a, I think a really good practical discussion for owners or operators about, you know, you know, how can you try and mitigate, you know, cyber risk. And we've got, you know, both, an operator we've got Bob Mercer from Cedar Brook Senior Living. He'll be kind of, guiding that discussion, from the operations perspective. And then we have a guy named Chris Lair who is with Sola Security. So he's a tech guy. And then we've got Jevin Backman from Propel Insurance. And, you know, obviously they're right in the middle of these types of issues. And so, you know, again, not a, you know, not a not a topic that anyone really can afford to not pay attention to. I think that'll be a really, you know, a really good one for us too.

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And then, you know, and then we'll kind of wrap things up with, you know, discussion that's going to really focus on, you know, how do we use data and AI to advance senior living. And I know that gets a lot of, you know, a lot of folks thinking about it, talking about it. I think we've got a really good panel. We've got a guy named Jeffrey Baum who teaches at Arizona State. He's a really, really interesting guy. He has a very unique perspective. He's a researcher. He's a tech guy. He's got a, you know, incredible business understanding. And he's also got a parent who has lived in senior living for around a decade, and he has been actively involved in her care. So whereas, you know, some academics wouldn't know assisted living from a train station, he knows it intimately, different communities. And so he's got a really, really unique perspective on that. So, you know, again, yeah. Well, we try to cover a lot of ground. The meeting is basically a day and a half. But that's, you know, that's kind of the lineup, and I think we have, you know, a lot of really terrific sessions lined up for everybody.

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27:30 - 28:17

Josh Crisp

Well, you always do an action packed ASHA. And I know our listeners are thinking, oh, my gosh, many of them are like, I haven't booked my hotel yet. I've got to do that. It's just a little over a month. January 27th, 29th, Phoenix at the Biltmore. And then there's going to be so many that they're thinking, why have I not been part of this either, as sponsoring this so I could be there?

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With the relationship building, networking and all the education and information in these great speakers that you have. So there's a host of people that I'm sure are going to be inquiring on the site. Lucas, I can't wait to be out in Phoenix. It's such a beautiful place. And, it's always great to see our industry friends and professionals getting together to talk about the industry we love so much.

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28:17 - 28:22

Lucas McCurdy

Very much so, Dave, thank you so much for taking time with us today. We look forward to seeing you in a few weeks here in January.

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28:22 - 28:46

David Schless

My pleasure. It's always fun to visit with you. And again, I just want to reiterate, I really appreciate Bridge the Gap. And, always, always enjoy listening and participating in your conversations. And, you guys are really great ambassadors for the industry. So thank you both. Thank you both. And, we'll look forward to seeing you in a few weeks.

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28:46 - 29:03

Lucas McCurdy

We really appreciate that coming from you, Dave. And, for our listeners that want to learn more, scroll down to the podcast notes. Hit those links to connect with ASHA. You can go to btgvoice.com, download this content and so much more. Thanks for listening to another great episode of Bridge the Gap.

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Outro

Thanks for listening to Bridge the Gap podcast with Josh and Lucas. Connect with the BTG network team and use your voice to influence the industry by connecting with us at btgvoice.com.

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